E217: Transitioning from IBC client to IBC advisor with Michael Duryea

Embark on an enlightening journey with us in this episode of “Dollars and Nonsense”. Host Nate Scott, alongside Michael Duryea, a converted IBC coach and team member of Living Wealth, delve into Michael’s transformative experience from being a Living Wealth client to becoming an influential agent. Discover the inspiring story of a man who, driven by his passion and financial savvy, transitioned from music to mastering the art of Infinite Banking.


Join us as Nate and Michael offer a blend of personal anecdotes, professional insights, and practical advice. Whether you’re a seasoned investor, a curious newcomer to IBC, or somewhere in between, this episode provides a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. Tune in to learn how to navigate your financial journey with confidence and break free from the herd mentality.


If you find value in our podcast, consider giving “Dollars and Nonsense” a five-star review on Apple Podcasts.

Topics Discussed:


  • Michael’s Financial Foundation: Learn about Michael’s upbringing, deeply rooted in financial wisdom and entrepreneurship, shaping his approach towards money and investments.
  • Embracing IBC: Understand how Michael’s journey led him from initial skepticism to a profound belief in the Infinite Banking Concept (IBC), reshaping his financial destiny.
  • Career Shifts: Explore Michael’s bold move from music to finance, demonstrating the power of adaptability and the pursuit of passion in carving out a successful career.
  • Building Trust: Dive deep into the importance of trust in financial partnerships. Hear firsthand experiences about how extending trust can transform relationships and financial strategies.
  • Overcoming Hurdles: Michael and Nate discuss overcoming common fears and misconceptions in IBC, emphasizing the importance of education and understanding in successful financial planning.
  • The Role of Communication: Learn why open and honest communication with financial coaches is crucial in navigating the path to financial independence.
  • Infinite Banking Realities: Get an insider’s perspective on the myths and truths of Infinite Banking and how it leads to robust, lifelong financial strategies.
  • Advice for Newcomers: Gain valuable insights for those new to Infinite Banking or considering it, highlighting the importance of due diligence and informed decision-making.
  • Extending Trust in Relationships: A critical look at the role of trust in both personal and professional relationships, and how it impacts financial decision-making.


Episode Resources:

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What is Infinite Banking

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Nate Scott (00:01)

In this episode I interview Michael Durier, an IBC coach on the Living Wealth team, about his transition from being a client of Living Wealth to becoming a successful agent. I’m Nate, I make sense out of money. This is Dollars and Nonsense. If you follow the herd, you will be slaughtered.


Michael, it’s so great to have you on the show. It’s been long overdue. Super excited to interview you and just have our listeners hear the story of somebody who fell in love with IBC as a client and then joined the business, which is honestly how most people get started with IBC to begin with, by the way. It’s kind of the typical path and you’ve done it as good as anybody. And so we’re really interested to hear what you have to say and your story and you know where you’re coming from and why.


Michael Duryea (00:52)

Yeah, well, thanks for having me. It’s an honor to be here.


Nate Scott (00:55)

Absolutely, it’s gonna be a fun time. So Michael, you got started as a client of ours in 2018. And a lot has changed since then, but I thought maybe we could just set the stage by giving some of your background, where you were coming from, how you entered in, and what made you make the change to becoming a coach, an NBC coach on the team.


Michael Duryea (01:19)

Yeah, yeah. So my great grandfather and grandfather built a vending business. They were entrepreneurs. And my dad has been the CFO of a company since 1985, a tomato grower down in Florida. I’ve kind of been interested in money and finances, kind of my whole life. I remember when I was young, my parents taught me to spend less than you make.


That was the first financial principle they taught me. They opened a savings account for me when I was like four years old. And every time I got money for Christmas or birthdays or anything, they put it right in that savings account and I wasn’t allowed to touch it. It just kind of accrued interest.


Nate Scott (02:02.338)

Kinda ruins the fun of getting the birthday money in some ways. And it’s gone.


Michael Duryea (02:05.715)

Yeah. Oh, I got some money. And it’s gone. That’s right. And then I just remember when I was in high school, paintball was a really big thing, especially among my group of friends and I really wanted a paintball gun and I wanted to get a really nice one. So I went to my dad and I was like, Dad’s got money. I can get dad to buy a paintball gun. I went to my dad and I said, I want a paintball gun. And he was like, great. And then he just looked at me, you know–


Nate Scott (02:17)

Yep. Go get one.


Michael Duryea (02:34)

Go get one. I was like, I don’t have any money. He’s like, well, maybe you should figure out how to get some money. So he made me think about it. And I started doing chores for the neighbors or mowing lawns or I got a job as a cashier, all this stuff. So I’ve kind of been interested in money my whole life. I’ve always wanted to have money. You know, I’ve always wanted to be financially responsible and all that.



We had some investment properties when I was young in my late teens and early twenties. We bought some, my dad actually loaned us some money to buy some single family homes and we rented those out and did various things. And long story short, I have a friend here in Kansas who’s a row crop farmer and he sent me a text one day. 


A mentor of ours, Greg Cook from Alaska had started talking to him about, like, I remember the text, I remember the day that it came, it was the first time I had ever heard about IBC. Josh said, Greg won’t shut up about this self-banking through life insurance policies thing. And Josh had taken over the family farm, it’s when he was like 19, and he’s really good with finances. I remember him saying I’m above average with finances. I do well, but I can’t make sense of this at all. Can you please just read this book and tell Greg he’s crazy so we can leave this and move on. Yeah, you were there.


Nate Scott (04:05)

Yeah, I remember that. I was there for part of that with Josh and everybody. I mean, it was interesting. So around that time, you’re talking about your love of money too, but you were, I almost wanted to call it like a starving artist. I don’t wanna say you’re starving, but you know, you were a music teacher, right? And you led the worship at your church as a music director. 



And so it seemed to me like it was a big jump to go from the arts, music and things like that to a business and finance career. It’s kind of a big transition, but it sounds like you were ready to do it. I mean, it was what was in you to become this, even from a young age to be more of an entrepreneur, which is such a huge thing for what we talk about with the whole empire over retire mentality, the idea of never retiring.



I would assume that you would say, if you had stayed in the music field, it’s a passion of yours. You just may not have wanted to be a career musician or maybe that was a passion at one point. But for whatever reason, that’s kind of fallen by the wayside for more of an entrepreneurial route, which I’m super proud of you for making the jump.


Michael Duryea (05:25)

Yeah, I went to college and I didn’t know what to major in. I’ve always been interested in too many things, and have trouble focusing. And I had another really good mentor that said, just study what you love and worry about your career later. And that’s what I did. And that’s why I majored in music because I loved music so much. And I did my bachelor’s at a little school called Grove City in Pennsylvania. 



I went to Notre Dame for my master’s and ended up being full-time music director for larger churches and teaching music in school, and teaching private lessons on the side and playing piano and organ for weddings, all that kind of stuff. And I still to this day can’t really explain, I mean, apart from just prayer and the Holy Spirit is really what it was. Like God basically brought Ray into my life and one day…you know, God.


Basically I needed to grow my career. I wasn’t making enough money to support my family the way I wanted to. And God was like, well, if you’re going to stay in music, I felt very strongly in prayer. I needed to go back and get my doctorate, my doctoral degree in music. And then if I had done that, I would have ended up either at a large university or a large cathedral church in a big city somewhere or both. And I knew that that was the path. And I could have done that. 



You know, I had the skills and the teaching and the connections and everything to do that. But I basically told God, I don’t want to do that. I want to live in Kansas near my wife’s family. I want to live in the Midwest. The Midwest is God’s country. You know, we all know that. And I felt that way. And so I asked God, give me something else to do in accordance with my talents, to be able to support my family and live here. And a very short time after that, Ray called me and said, I want you to work for me. I was like, well, let me try this. Darn the tortillas. Here I go.


Nate Scott (07:19)

Yeah. And you had been a client of ours, of course, before that. And you got started just because, what made you come to the conclusion? Just before your time as an agent. But, as you brought up, Josh was your friend, he was telling you about it. Greg was telling you about it. These people telling you, hey, you need to look into this. When did the light bulb click for you that it was something worthy of pursuing?


Michael Duryea (07:43)

Well, the light bulb really clicked when I realized that I didn’t have a financial education. And I won’t go into too much of that. And even though my dad was a CFO and my great grandfather didn’t pass away until I was in college, I knew him well. Even though I knew them well and they had started a business, through a series of circumstances, I realized that I just didn’t have a financial education. And the light bulb moment then was–


One day I was like, man, I have a wife and two kids. What happens to them if I die? Well, I had like a $20,000 life insurance policy, death benefit, $20,000 death benefit. That was it. And I remember my dad saying that might be enough to bury you. You know, probably not, right? That was why he said might. And for some reason, that was a light bulb moment. And almost at the same time–


Nate Scott (08:22)

It’s like a Gerber life.


Michael Duryea (08:40)

Josh had me read Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. And that just blew the ceiling off of my imagination that there was all this, I knew at that point, there was a universe of financial knowledge that I knew very little about, almost nothing. And at the same time, here comes Greg Cook, who was a great mentor who said, you need to read this book about becoming your own bank.



Well, that seemed to match what I was reading in Robert Kiyosaki and stuff. So I read the book and the book made me want to come talk to Ray and you about this. And I got my first policy with you because I wanted to see if it worked the way I thought it worked. Like you guys were telling me all this stuff, but for me, it’s like, someone can communicate really well, but because I’m not a very good learner, I can’t focus or whatever it is, I might not be absorbing it. I want to try this. So I did a policy, it was $5,000 a year in premium. And, I wanted to see if it worked and everything has worked exactly like everyone always told me. 



And I acquired more policies and I spent some time with a different agency who was trying to teach me some other things that I didn’t agree with as much. And ended up, just acquiring more policies and using the system. I started using it to pay off my credit cards. I was using my policy to pay my rent. I was renting a house at the time and doing all this stuff and everything just continued to work exactly. And I loved the control and I loved being able to just run that banking system the way I wanted to rather than just kind of helplessly watching the market do whatever it wanted to do or whatever. I like the control.


Nate Scott (10:30)

Love it. And I mean, so you did it the route we normally suggest, which is come taste and see that it’s good. It’s so easy to criticize things or even to think something sounds too good to be true whenever you’re looking at it from afar. It’s incredibly rare for someone to jump into infinite banking and realize they don’t like doing infinite banking. That’s just the truth. It does happen.


Michael Duryea (10:58)

Yeah. Yep, it does happen.


Nate Scott (10:59)

There is no question it does happen occasionally, but it’s very rare. Normally the times that something like that would occur is somebody who had very incorrect expectations, either that were planted by some kind of a fraudster online or something, or just they built them themselves. You know, they created some sort of false expectation. But nonetheless, almost everyone who gets involved ends up falling in love with the feeling of anti-fragility, which I’ve talked about, just feeling like they’re not fragile anymore financially. 


They have control. There’s a bedrock to their life that can’t be shaken. It’s the gateway drug to the rich dad, poor dad world. It’s the gateway drug to entrepreneurship for so many people. You start with IBC and you don’t know where it’s going to lead. We all know where 401Ks and IRAs lead to passive non-moving money. It’s just kind of stagnant money. Maybe they earn a good rate of return, maybe they don’t. And we know where that leads. And if you want that, you want that. 


But at the end of the day, IBC typically leads to some sort of entrepreneurial endeavors with money, some sort of you taking your hands on your money to achieve something where you have an input. And that’s what I feel like is missing from most of America’s, you know, the American population as a whole they don’t have that reality. 


They have abdicated their financial life to Wall Street and said you guys handle it and we’re not gonna care about it. And you can see the results. It’s not very good. But all that’s to say, so you came in, you were a client, you did the system. You started policy, you tasted, you saw that it was good. You said I’m gonna open more. 



At some point you’re praying, you’re asking God, Lord, give me some sort of window into what I can do to stay here and start providing for my family more. And then Ray, who’s very in tune with the Holy Spirit, gives you a call. That’s essentially what you’re saying. And you were kind of investigating the financial world in some way too when he called. It was a perfect meeting. And Ray mentored you all the way up until his passing earlier this year from 2020 through early 2023. And it’s been a huge success. 


Michael Duryea (13:02)

Yep. That’s right. 


Nate Scott (13:24)

Now that you’re in the business, Michael, and now that you’ve transitioned to our vantage point, do you look back at your life pre– let me do this real quick too. So when I got started with a policy and became an advisor at the exact same time, I actually never lived fully in the client’s shoes. So I met Ray, I was dating his oldest granddaughter, who would be my wife and is my wife now.


And I was going to school for finance and I went to go see Ray and asked him for an internship, which he initially said no to. And the Holy Ghost got into a fight with him as Ray would always lovingly say and convinced him otherwise and asked me to join and the rest has been history. That was 11 years ago. But what I’m saying is I came and learned from him and started a policy and started my career all at the same time.


Michael Duryea (14:10)

Yeah, that’s right.


Nate Scott (14:23)

And so I always felt like I never fully felt what it was like to just be a client. And sometimes I kind of wish I had known what that was like. And so like essentially for you, Michael, do you ever look back at you being a client and you can relate easily to how your clients are feeling now because you remember what it was like to just be the client, not the expert. How does that work? 



What would you say to all the clients listening, to all the people who may be interested in Infinite Banking who are listening, what is something you would encourage them as you think back on your time before you became an advisor and now that you’re more of an expert on the subject, having been doing it for a living, what are the things you really want to get across that would have helped you as a client?


Michael Duryea (15:13)

Communicate. That’s my knee jerk. That’s what I heard. Like communicate your needs to your coach. This is what I need. This is my strategy. Like pursue your coach. Don’t expect them to do everything. It’s sort of like a marriage and you know, like, if the husband is doing it all, or if the wife is doing it all, maybe that’s kind of a weird analogy, but you know, when you decide to trust your money, which is such a huge representation of your livelihood to a company like Living Wealth, you’re entering this really honestly intimate relationship. 


And both people are gonna have to communicate and participate. And we do the best, being on the Living Wealth side and being in the business. I just remember how much it meant to me that Ray would come to Emporia or he would come have breakfast with us or he would do this or he would do all these things. But Ray would always say, your mechanic doesn’t know when your check engine light comes on. 


He needs you to tell him, hey, the check engine light came on. I smelled this weird smell over here in this part of the car. And everything’s fine until I go 42 miles an hour, but when I get to 42, this happens. If you give the mechanic all that information, it’s very likely that he’s gonna know exactly what to do and he can help you and he’ll get you back on track. And having been with Living Wealth since 2018, everybody at Living Wealth wants to do that, but they have no idea what to do if you don’t tell them what’s going on.


Nate Scott (17:04)

That is a really good point. I mean, dealing with clients all the time, why do you think some clients can hold things close to the chest? I have a theory myself of why that’s the case. And I don’t know if you do too, but one of the things, money is one of those taboo topics for sure. It’s not normal in the world to let somebody see your financial life for the way it is. It’s very rare. You may do that with your closest friends. Maybe you’d never, I don’t know. There’s very few friends I have that I talk to about details about money. 


So I guess what I’m trying to say, on top of that, there’s also this fear of being sold something that certainly exists. In other words, if I let Nate in, maybe he’s gonna try to connive and convince me to go buy big policies that I’m gonna regret.



And all of these things are kind of weighing on somebody. So they end up in the conversation that they would have people like you and me almost wanting to turn us into an order taker as opposed to an advisor. And this happens all the time where they say, OK, I think I’m going to do this. And they don’t really want to let us into the real financial scope, because I think that they are worried that I’ll ask them to do something that they actually don’t want to do. And so I totally get it, by the way. I totally get it.



But you are correct that as you mentioned with marriage, you can’t have these sort of trust issues and expect to receive a lot of value from us. The question is, what value do you want from us? Do you want an order taker value or do you want a trusted consultative relationship where we act as more of a consultant in a lot of ways? And that’s one of the things I’ve tried to express even in this podcast for the people listening is that’s the route I like to go. I work best in someone’s life. when I can sit in the consultant’s chair. 


If you want to put me in a salesman’s chair as an order taker, you’re gonna get a very dumbed down version of Nate. Like you’re not gonna get any value from it. It’s just, yeah, I’ll take your order, and none of us will ever really connect. So, and this is one of the things that, the Infinite Banking community at large, one of the issues that can take place is, I don’t know if people realize,



And you may not run into this as much as I do, Michael, but the people may not realize what do you actually want from your agent, from your advisor, your coach? Like the policy is the policy. It is important to be designed correctly. It’s important that it’s a good policy. But those are simple things in the grand scheme of things. What are you really getting from working with an advisor? And it really should be advice. It really should be counsel. It should be a new board of directors.



The seat has opened up and he’s sitting in it trying to help you build success in this world. All that to say, yeah, communication is 100% important. All my best clients, we communicate all the time. And the clients who are more passive, maybe they don’t communicate as much, but they are welcome to communicate more and more because that is how we help people, it’s communication.


Michael Duryea (20:25)

Yeah. I want to say something about that. Ray taught me a lot about money and financing and banking and everything. But I’ve said for years and I still say that stuff feels like the crumbs that fell off the table compared to like a set of life lessons that he taught me that you can apply to anything. And one of them is in play here.


Up until I met Ray, for whatever reason, I don’t know why, it’s my responsibility, I did this. I didn’t really trust everyone. Like I made people go through this really, anyone I met, I made them go through this really arduous process of earning my trust. You gotta earn my trust, you gotta earn my trust before I’ll give it to you, you gotta earn it. And Ray told me, do not make people earn your trust. Give them your trust and allow them to earn your mistrust. 


And that’s the opposite way of acting from the way I was acting before. And what I discovered is, if you make people earn your trust from the beginning, they will never earn your trust. It’s an endless loop. It can never be earned. Trust has to be given. And the thing that can be earned is mistrust. And so I’m not saying you have to trust Living Wealth. I’m not saying you have to trust Michael or Nate. I’m not saying that. 


Nate Scott (21:50)

But I guess here’s what I would say, Michael, just real quick, you should, if you’re gonna do business with somebody, you should trust them. That’s essentially, I think, what you’re saying. You don’t have to trust Living Wealth, but if you are going to work with somebody, there should be a baseline of given trust that they actually want what’s best for you. If you buy a policy for somebody you don’t think they want what’s best for you, off the bat, I mean, what are we doing here?


Michael Duryea (22:17)

Yeah, yeah. What are we even doing? It’s a universal rule of life that in order to have a good life, a fruitful life, a meaningful life, Jesus said, I came that they might have a rich and satisfying life. You have to trust people and you have to do it in community and you can’t do it in community if you don’t trust. The relationship with God, by the way, is the same thing. I don’t want to, I can go too preachy, too fast sometimes, but I really believe this. God doesn’t prove his trust to us. He asks us to trust him, to take a leap of faith. Just do what I’m asking and see what I do with it. Even with God, that’s how the relationship works. I think it’s unavoidable, as far as I can tell.


It’s this unavoidable principle of all relationships, that it starts with this trust and faith, and then we should always assume that we can trust until there’s a definite reason not to. Okay, that guy definitely lied about that. And now there’s a reason for mistrust. That can be forgiven and repaired, okay? But it shouldn’t be assumed. It shouldn’t ever.


Nate Scott (23:36)

Right. Well, and I guess we’re kicking against the go-tier because the insurance industry is not the most trusted industry and it has earned many black eyes. And so whenever a client is learning about IBC, the initial knee-jerk reaction most times is to not trust it because these insurance guys will do anything to get a sale. They’ll say whatever they need to do to get a sale.


Michael Duryea (23:47)

Yeah. That’s right.


Nate Scott (24:03)

We’re fighting against this, we understand that, but what’s so unique about Infinite Banking is I believe, like there are some nasty players in the IBC world, there’s no doubt, there’s some lousy infinite banking agents, but from my experience, Infinite Banking seems to compel some of the better quality advisors because it’s the truth. It’s the truth about how money works. There’s a lot of truth to it. There’s a lot of reality to it where people who want the truth will come to it. I love that you mentioned that and it’s super powerful. That’s one of the things as a client, especially when you were working with Ray and me, that you did was start to extend trust. And It took a little while, but–


Michael Duryea (24:56)

Yeah, I just made the decision in my life with everybody, my pastor, my wife, my family members, I mean, everyone. I’m going to assume the best motivation and the best intent and the best everything until I have this definite, definite reason not to. And it’s transformed my life. I can promise anybody that’s listening to this, IBC, no IBC, Living Wealth, not living–



If you make that change in your life, your life will get better. You will also get hurt. People will betray you. Like the only thing that you can do to permanently avoid all betrayal forever is to never trust anyone, but then you’ll have no relationships. So, you know, if you want to have relationships, you have to open the possibility of betrayal and people don’t want to do that. They’re like, Oh no.


Nate Scott (25:32)

Yeah. That’s a very good point, yeah. It’ll be an empty cupboard. Everyone’s so worried about being naive and getting tricked by somebody. But at the end of the day, that’s why I love the podcast. Just to let you know, Michael, that for the most part, when somebody comes in and, you know, learns about IBC, they will maybe listen to 30, 40 episodes before we ever get to meeting them. So the trust has been “earned”.



And it’s been such a huge blessing for that, for both the clients and for myself. But regarding, you know, if we want to transition, Michael, so you started out as a client, became successful as a client, really took IBC as far as you could with the financial position that you were in at that time, and then you transitioned to working with us as an advisor. Now that you have your own clients, what is something that you would want to express to them as one of the biggest hurdles that people have to get over before they can really take IBC to the next level in their own lives. Like what’s a hurdle you had to get over? And what’s a hurdle that everyone seems like they have to get over in order to practice IBC at a high level.


Michael Duryea (27:00)

So I was actually just listening yesterday to the last podcast that I ever did with Ray. And I did it here in my office, over there in my podcast room. And I asked him this question, of how many people have you tried to share IBC with? About 4,000 people or something.



And what’s the biggest hurdle that you’ve seen? And I think he said, number one is loan repayments and number two was capitalization of policies. And I totally agree with those two things. People don’t tend to like the word loan or loan repayments and for every other situation in the history of their life and their family’s life and their dad and their grandfather and everything.


A loan repayment was a payment to somebody else rather than a payment to the family bank. And so what Ray said was, and I totally agree with this, he said, people tend to view banking as more like a hobby, which they shouldn’t. He said it’s a business and it’s a very important business that we should look at. And when you see your bank as a business, you begin to see the importance of paying yourself back with interest.


So I think the failure to pay ourselves back with interest and understanding the freedom, you can stretch that out, you can change the interest rate, you can change the terms, you’re in control. But the people that go for a long period of time without paying themselves back was Ray’s number one. And then capitalization of the policy. I’ll tell you what Ray said about that. He said, people limit the size of their policy because they’re afraid of what’s gonna happen in the future.


They make the policy smaller out of fear. And this fear of premium things that you talk about is a very real thing. I went through it, everybody went through it. And I wanna tell you what Ray said, cause it was so great. He said, have I gotten myself in a pickle due to overcommitment in the past? He said, yeah, absolutely. Ray was like, I have made more overcommitments than anybody that I know.


Nate Scott (28:50)

100%. Yeah, Ray, the story of his life.


Michael Duryea (29:12)

And he said, and if you had asked me back then, like within two or three years of that overcommitment, I may have said, oh, it was a mistake. I wish I hadn’t done it, blah, blah. He said, but now that enough time has passed, and I look back at all the commitments that I made, he says, I wish that it was even worse than the way that I made it. I wish it had been even worse than the way I made it because it’s all been better.


Nate Scott (29:36)

Yeah. Well, Ray was an incredibly teachable person that learned from everything and he knew that there was no way he was going to learn without putting money into it. He always said education is expensive and he was not willing to spend money by losing it or overcommitting or something on education. And I agree though that the biggest hurdle, and I’ve talked about this on the podcast many times, which you’ve listened to, of course, and Ray would too, is in the realm of loans and premiums, but especially the fear of premium, feeling nervous about paying premiums and policies. 


I think you said it even before the show, whenever you described that if someone starts a policy and there’s a $50,000 premium, and it’s dated November 1st, the way they feel about it is they have this big expense coming down the pike every year on November 1st.


Michael Duryea (30:42)

Yep. Yeah, I owe $50,000 to some company on November 1st or all hell is going to break loose. That’s the way they see it.


Nate Scott (30:52)

Exactly right. That’s the way they think. They think that there’s going to be some massive negative event if they don’t pay this bill that’s coming due. And I understand why people are coming in like that and we do suggest people get started, in our words, relatively conservatively. I don’t normally suggest people start by throwing everything in there, but with that being said, it’s the first, it’s the biggest thing.



Everything stems from the fear of premium. If you have a fear of premium, that will completely change the trajectory of your banking business that you’re trying to build. It’ll be very small. In fact, you may never even really get it off the ground for the most part. It’ll just be mild. Or if you get over it, then you’re gonna be having this amazing, beautiful banking business that will last for generations. It’s the one, it’s the tipping point for me, is whether someone can get over what’s called the fear of premium.



By the way, if you’re new to listening to this everybody and you wanna learn what we mean by fear of premium, there’s a whole bunch of podcast episodes I’ve talked about and I’m sure you can find something to learn about the fear of premium. But nonetheless, this intimidation of a premium payment is the biggest hurdle for almost everybody.


Michael Duryea (31:57)

Yep. I want to share with everybody, if you’re struggling with the fear of premium like Nate did and like I did, everybody goes through it. There’s two things that I have found that help people the most. Number one is Nate has a free video series and in that video series there is a video called the window of premium or how do premiums really work? That video is amazing. And number two is Nate’s webinar called the four stages of IBC commitment. And we have that for free on our website too. 


Those two things will help you, like I love when we were in Mexico, Nate, when you were giving the presentation, you were like, guys, you can do infinite banking or not do infinite banking. I don’t care, but if you choose not to do infinite banking, don’t do it for some dumb reason that isn’t true. Like, do it for a reason that’s true, not for one that isn’t true.


Nate Scott (33:11)

Right, yeah don’t have a misconception that you believe strongly that then makes you not do IBC. Like go ahead and know the actual thing that it is and then decide if you wanna do it or not. And that’s one of the big things with premiums is that it’s such a scary thing for people or policy loan interest and taking out policy loans and they have all these questions about these details which you should have questions on. You’re learning this new thing. You should understand these things. 


But make sure you actually understand them not in some emotionally, psychologically negative manner where you emotionally tie into loan interest and premium payments. This happens, by the way, Michael. I find a lot whenever you work with a couple, let’s say like a spouse, a husband and wife couple, where one of them is very on board with IBC and has done all of the study. And the other one has not done any study.


Michael Duryea (34:04)

Yep. Happens all the time.


Nate Scott (34:10)

And they only know what the other spouse has mentioned in passing about it. And so you find this happening all the time where one guy’s fully over the fear of premium and just ready to rock and roll. And the other person will of course see things emotionally because there’s not a full understanding there. There’s a misconception there. So they say a new premium means a new expense, which means we’re losing money. We have loans, which means they have to be repaid. That’s gonna lose money. 


Like, it’s okay if you don’t want to do IBC, other spouse, but everything you’ve said thus far about why you don’t want to do IBC or why it’s causing you stress is based on untruths. It’s based on falsities. It’s ignorance based. So that’s why IBC is such a teaching oriented strategy. It’s not something that I believe should be sold. I think it should be taught. You just learn about how to do this thing and then you can decide if you want to do



I’ve noticed in the world of IBC, a lot of people are still getting sold into it. They’re getting hyped into it. There’s a lot of hype out there about IBC.


Michael Duryea (35:17)

Yeah, infinite banking actually went viral on TikTok. Like that term.


Nate Scott (35:24)

Oh yeah, 100%. Instagram Reels, TikTok, there’s this hype building about infinite banking. I’m terrified of that because it’s such a teaching-oriented process, a learning process to just understand how this thing is going to work. And you’re gonna have a lot of people give a bad name to infinite banking, both on the agent side and on the client side and in the eyes of the insurance companies, if you have all these uneducated people who got hyped up into believing something with half truths based on hype, who then get involved, realize they didn’t understand it and close policies down. So I’m worried about the hype for sure.


Michael Duryea (36:02)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s exactly like this, Nate. It’s exactly like these people online that look shredded, you know? They look actually beefed up and shredded. They’re like, you can look like this too, and this is all you have to do. And they get all hyped up about building a lot of strength and looking amazing and getting shredded and being really healthy. And they get sold something, or put on a webinar or whatever, and there’s a lot of hype.



Maybe even the person creating the hype really, I mean, they really believe in what they’re doing. Hey, look, they’re healthy, they’re shredded or whatever. But infinite banking is wealth building and it’s just like everybody else in life. If you wanna be really healthy, you have to commit to a certain diet, a certain exercise, a certain sleep schedule, and you have to do it for a long period of time. 


And if you do, like for me, a pianist, you can’t go practice the piano for 45 minutes and expect to be like this virtuoso. You have to commit and learn these things. And if you commit, then it’s work, but you need a teacher. You need a coach. You need to commit, you need to learn. And it works great. If you do it that way.


Nate Scott (37:15)

Yeah, you’re right. And I love how you tied that into extending trust. I think maybe we can wrap up in that point, which is, as you say, you get a teacher, you want to extend a little bit of trust to your teacher that they know what they’re doing and they can help you achieve some things. And no matter where you’re at, whether you do business with Living Wealth and you’re listening to this, whether you do business with somebody else, that’s great. Just make sure that whoever you’re doing business with, that you want to extend trust to, that that’s going to be the foundation for the relationship.


Michael Duryea (37:42)

Yeah, and if you already have a clear and definite reason to not trust them, do what you want. Do what you want to do with that, but recognize that it’s a reality.


Nate Scott (37:55)

Yeah, 100%. I love it. But anyway, Michael, anything else you want to get across today in our last few moments?


Michael Duryea (38:05)

I mean, I’m just thankful to Ray and his family and to you and your whole family. I’ve been so blessed to be a part of, I just want to thank you. Thank you for having me on the show. Thank you for teaching me everything you’ve taught me. Thank you for all your content. Thank you to Ray. I know he’s looking down and smiling. He’s really proud of us for what we’re doing. Everybody at Living Wealth, all of our clients. 


Yeah, just don’t follow the herd. Just don’t. Find, you know, their green pad, everybody told the Wright brothers, you’re crazy, if God wanted man to fly, he would have given him wings. And they didn’t give up, they went, they did what they saw. They really went for their thing and they committed to it and they stuck with it and then look what happened, you know.


Nate Scott (38:38)

Yeah. There’s green pastures over here. There’s plenty of space. Amen. And that’s what we’re doing here with IBC, which I believe is the bedrock financial situation that if people would focus on building the foundation before they go out and do the Bitcoin and all these other things, their life would be so much stronger, especially financially. So anyway, Michael, it’s been a great, great podcast episode. Great to have you on the show. We’ll do it again for sure.


Michael Duryea (39:11)

Yeah. Yep.


Nate Scott (39:23)

Maybe we’ll start getting into some pointed conversations about specific IBC details. But for now, it was good to have you. And this has been Dollars in Nonsense. If you follow the herd, you will be slaughtered. For free transcripts and resources, please visit livingwealth.com/E217.