E111: Astonishing Reasons Why You Should NOT Defer Taxes

Nate: In this episode, we discuss the reasons why you should not be deferring taxes into the future due to the current tax and political environment, and how you can avoid paying too much in tax to the Internal Revenue Service. She’s Holly, and she helps people find financial freedom.

Holly: He’s Nate. He makes sense out of money. This is Dollars and Nonsense. If you follow the herd, you will be slaughtered.

Nate: All right. Well, today is actually the first episode that Holly and I are shooting in the year 2020. It’s probably going to be a couple weeks out when it gets aired.

Holly: Well, actually, Nate, it’s 2021.

Nate: Oh, gosh. It’s 2021. See, the years are running together. You’re right. So the first episode we’re going to shoot in 2021. And the news has really just broke in realtime as we’re airing this that Georgia’s seats in the Senate were won by the Democrats, and so this has caused a lot of people, including me, to start thinking about taxes. And what are my tax situations really going to look like with the new regime coming in and getting some new policy proposals? And I think most of us on either side of the aisle would understand that most of the Democrats are more fans of government controlled things, more fans of higher tax and higher benefit from the government, and higher amounts of, larger amounts of programs and so forth. So you get concerned about taxes, but what we’re going to talk about today is something we’ve talked about before, but I think we can look at it a little bit with a fresh lens, mainly due to my own testimony, I guess, Holly, of what I just got done talking about with my accountant on really proving to myself that deferring taxes right now just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.

Holly: Yeah. And I think, Nate, you said it best even when we were talking that really, what you have to view right now is that our taxes are on sale. And we would never consider taxes being on sale, but we are in one of the lowest interest rate environments we have been in … Not interest rates, sorry, tax rate-

Nate: Tax environments.

Holly: Environments we’ve been in, in the last 100 years, easily.

Nate: That’s really what stirred this to me, Holly. I guess I could go ahead and tell the background of really why we’re talking about it right now. I had a meeting with my accountant at the end of the year, and he’s running some numbers, and he says, “Nate, your income level this year erased some of your deductions that you were getting.” In other words, they’re starting to get phased out. And the main ones that were getting phased out for me were my child tax credits, as well as the 20% pass through business deduction that was part of the new Trump tax plans that were implemented a couple years ago.

And so he said, “Because of your income, you had a great year, or whatever it is, but you had a good year, because of that, your income is starting to phase out some of these deductions that you used to be able to get.” And so in that conversation, we ran some numbers. And he said, “Nate, if you contributed about $40,000, $45,000 to a SEP IRA, then not only would you obviously get the normal deduction for contributing to it,” which as, Holly, you and I both know is not a deduction, it’s a deferral of tax, so we can talk about that more. But you get this normal deduction and you would actually allow yourself to take advantage of a couple of these other deductions, which means that your actual real tax savings on that $45,000 would be about 60% almost, is what he said.

So he said, “If you contribute $45,000 to this SEP IRA, it will lower your income for this year, which would help you open up a couple of these deductions that were being phased out. And that would essentially net you a total deduction of 60% of whatever you contribute to the SEP IRA.” So I’m going to be open and honest with our listeners. This was the first time I was ever tempted in my entire life to potentially put any money in a qualified retirement program. I was tempted for a moment, and I almost feel guilty about it because I’m so adamantly against them. But what I’m glad that he talked to me about this, because it let me research some things more in depth for the first time because really, I got to thinking. I was like, “Nate, what are the changes that you’ll actually in the future have to pay 60% in income taxes? How likely is it that you would’ve ever been in that tax bracket?” So that’s when, Holly, I went back.

And you and I talked about this right before this too. Went back, looked at some of the historical tax rates, and I confirmed to myself completely that right now in 2020 at least, the taxes are dramatically lower, the overall tax burden on a normal person is far less than it’s ever been. And any time we decide to defer taxes into the future, we are running the risk of actually having to pay much larger amounts of taxes whenever we do pull the money out. Holly, should I dive in on some of what I found, some of the quick numbers there?

Holly: I think we should dive in on some numbers. And I want to say, Nate, all of this truly does have to deal with in recent years, because really, the IRS didn’t come into being until the 1913 really. Right? And because of that, we really are living in an environment and a world where we might think our taxes are high right now, but we literally do not have any concept of what the taxes, how low they were prior to the IRS and how they’ve gone within the last 100 years. And I think the research that you did actually helps you understand. Hey, tax deferral isn’t always the best answer, and you really should see right now that for 2020 and the taxes you’re going to pay, you’re getting, in a way, it is a sale. You’re getting a pretty-

Nate: We’re getting a deal on taxes right now.

Holly: A deal.

Nate: Yeah. I agree.

Holly: And if you think it’s going to get better in the next four years, I think you’re going to be wrong just because of the offices in Congress and stuff, and the majority that’s controlling it because typically, historically, this is when taxes would go up.

Nate: Yeah. Let me just go ahead and say something really quick, and we can dive in. And you talked about this right before, Holly. But just the nature of government in general, you give them the right to do something, it’s kind of like that boiling frog syndrome where the story if you put the frog in cold water, and you turn the heat up, and he’ll just stay in there and die. And that’s like a government program to me honestly, because you’re right, if you go back to 1913 when the income tax law was first established, the highest tax rate was 7%. So this is the start of the income tax, 7% tax rate was the highest rate you could be done. And that was over $500,000 of income.

Well, if you adjust $500,000 of income to 2020, it’s literally 7% on any income above $12 million in today’s values. But let me backtrack. When they first got started, the tax bracket on income up to 20 grand, so the main tax bracket that most people would’ve fallen under, was 1%, from $0 to $20,000. Now some people say, “Well, $20,000 is not that much money.” Well, it was back in 1913. If you adjust the $20,000 in 1913, which is the 1% tax bracket, and you adjust it for inflation until today, that same tax bracket would apply. Essentially, if we had the same tax law in 2020 that they had in 1913 when it got started, you would be paying 1% income tax on up to $477,000. I think we can all get on board with that to some degree. The government goes out and says, “Hey, we’re going to have to institute some income tax. We’ve got to pay for this World War One. We’ve got to do whatever.”

But the vasty majority, 99% of the people in America would’ve only ended up paying 1% of their income. You can see how they were able to get it through, they were able to get this thing approved. Now it’s enforced. And then what do you see for the rest of the history of the tax bracket? Increase, increase, increase, increase, increase, increase, increase. So you can go back to … That’s what I did. I went back in 1990, 1980, 1970, 1960. And I was thinking, “What were the tax brackets back in these various different times in history? How much of a sale are taxes at right now?” So in 1960, the top tax bracket in 1960 was 91%. Now I know that in 1960, not very many people were making enough money to pay that. But isn’t … That’s-

Holly: 91% though.

Nate: 91%. That would’ve applied to all income over $3 million in today’s money. But let’s go to the middle of the road I guess I’m saying.

Holly: Yeah.

Nate: In other words, you were paying a 50% tax bracket in 1960 on all income above $250,000. You were paying a 34% tax bracket on all income above $120,000. In other words, what we’re seeing is these huge tax brackets. Right now, and these are all from married, filing jointly, by way. That’s just the one I’m going to use. Right now, you don’t get to 32% tax bracket in today’s day and age until you get to $326,000 of income. It was 120 back in 1960, and you were paying 34%. Huge. So taxes today, the overall burden is way higher. The minimum rate right now is 10%, and it doesn’t get up to 12%, and it stays at 10 or 12 all that way through 80 grand.

You know what it was back then? The bottom tax bracket in 1960 was 20% on anything from zero to 4000. You’re paying 20%. And then you go up to 1970. Hey, did it get any better in 1970? Well, maybe it got a little bit, not a lot. But in 1970, the top tax bracket, they lowered it to 70%, those kind guys. So instead of 91%, now we’re down at 70%, but that’s the top rate. You were paying 50% of your income in taxes in 1970. You were in the 50% tax bracket on anything over $125,000. There’s a lot of people listening to this whose income as a family is over $125,000. 50% tax bracket in 1970 for $125,000.

Do you know that right now if you’re making $125,000, the tax bracket that you would find yourself in is 22%? That’s crazy that it was not really that long ago that you’d be paying 50% on 120 grand of income. And the same thing, you go up to 1980, it’s very similar. 1980, top bracket was still 70%. And you’re paying 50% tax bracket on anything over $130,000, so it’s practically the same as 1970. And these are all adjusted for inflation, by the way. So all the numbers I’m giving you of income are all adjusted for inflation. So in other words, you’re paying 50% on anything over 45 grand back in 1980. But the 45 grand in 1980 is not the same as 45 grand today. So that’s why I’ve adjusted for inflation. That’s where you get the $130,000.

And 1990 seems like they have lowered the taxes a little bit. You have Reagan in there, who dramatically wanted to lower taxes. And so the max tax rate in 1990 was only 28%. But that tax bracket applied to all income over 32 grand in 1990. So you would have to have paid in 1990, 28% on all income over $28,000, which in today’s dollars, the 1990 income in today’s dollars is anything over 58 grand. So if you made over 58 grand, all of the income above 58 grand was taxed at 28%. We don’t get to even close to 28% until you’re over $326,000 of income today. So while the top bracket might’ve been lower, the overall tax burden was certainly higher for the normal individual. All of this was confounding to me. It was an aha moment. I’ve said it many times that I do not want to be deferring taxes into the future. I think it’s too dangerous.

But whenever you really look at the history, you do your own research, you look at the history of how much taxes were being charged throughout the history of the United States, you realize, yeah. In 2020, why would we be deferring taxes to the future when we could easily end up going closer and closer to the mean, the average of taxes? And if we did that, we would all be fools for contributing through IRAs and 401Ks, and things that defer income and defer taxes into the future, that we hope to be able to pull out when we retire. And the whole goal of those programs is hoping that you can pull money out in the future when you’re not making as much money in retirement and then lower taxes. But that’s just not panning out, and to me, it’s just dangerous.

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Holly: And Nate, I think too many people hear tax deferral, and they think they don’t have to pay taxes on it, or oh, I’m getting this great tax deduction. And you have to understand that tax deferred doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay it. It means you are paying it in the future. And if we look at history, and history tends to repeat itself, it means we’re probably going back on an upswing of an increase in our taxes. And the reality is to defer your taxes later on in life often means, number one, you’re keeping more income, especially if you’re married or you have kids, there’s less kids, your kids typically are out of the house. But you still have income coming in, so you have less deductions.

But on the same hand, you also tend to be in a higher tax bracket because your income typically increases with your job experience as you work your way up corporate America, or whatever you’re doing. You tend to get an increase in your rate in your job. You get a raise. And as you get a raise, or your income starts exceeding what you expected it to, it means you get to pay more taxes. I think the easy opt out often is, hey, let’s tax defer it, or let’s put it in a retirement program because then we’ll have that money there for later on. And I think the reality is, as long as we continue to allow the government to control all those aspects, you have to stop and ask yourself, “Will the money be there? And what will my tax bracket be?” I think most people don’t even realize how high our taxes have gone in a very short amount of time.

Nate: If it just goes back to the norm, you really would see that we’re in very low tax brackets right now. And you’re right, this is my biggest issue with accountants. They meet with my clients and they talk to them about, your taxes are going to be high this year. Here, put money into this 401K or this IRA. And then you’ll lower your tax liability this year. And it bothers me because everybody knows a contribution to a 401K or an IRA is not a tax deduction. It is a tax deferral. You don’t get to count the income as income today. But whenever you use it at some point, you’re going to have to count it as income when you use it in the future.

And so you’re hoping, this is what accountants would just say, you’re just hoping that in the future, you’re going to be in a lower tax bracket. First off, that doesn’t sound very exciting to me. Being in a lower tax bracket just means I have less money. First off, it’s kind of a lame premise. Go ahead and retire on less money than what you’re making today. Everyone should be fine with that, they say. I’m like, “Well, I don’t know. I don’t think I’d be okay with that.” I prefer to be wealthy. But beside the point, it’s also assuming some things about tax rates that I think are foolish to assume. And one of the things that, Holly, I told you before this, but I think is kind of key here, is I’ve decided for myself that I would regret more if I deferred taxes and I ended up paying higher tax rates whenever I retired.

In other words, I would regret hoping and crossing my fingers that I’m going to end up being in a lower tax bracket in the future, and then it doesn’t pan out. And then I wasted all these working years of contributing to a 401K and IRA, where I can’t use the money. It’s set aside. I don’t get to bank with it. I don’t get to use it. And then whenever I get finally to retirement, and then I find myself in a higher tax bracket, I’d be so upset. I’d regret what I had done. However, I really don’t think there’s any way that I would ever regret having tax free income in retirement. Let’s say even if I got to retirement and if I had deferred the money, I would’ve ended up in a lower bracket. Let’s just pretend that’s going to happen, though it’s not.

But even if I was in that position, guess what. I honestly can say I would not regret having tax free income. I’ve never met a single person who was getting close to retirement who wishes he didn’t have this much tax free income, like, “Oh, man. I wish some of this was taxable.” I’ve never found a guy who wishes he had deferred more income into the future to take it in retirement. Everyone is the opposite. They wish they had had more tax free income built up. And that’s exactly what we help people do through the infinite banking concept and these life insurance policies, where you pay premiums into a policy, and we don’t get a deduction now or a deferral now for those premiums. But when we pull money out in the future, we can get it tax free, and so we can set ourselves up. And those of you who listen to the podcast would understand that more, if you’re new to the podcast, then you might want to go back and look at a few more episodes to kind of get clued in on what we’re talking about there.

Holly: And I’ve talked to accountants who thought they were doing the right things for their clients. Right? And telling them to put them into these tax deferred programs, retirement programs, 401Ks. And then even the other day, I was talking to an accountant. He said, “I honestly believed I’d done right by a client. And in reality, now they’re looking at: How do they access this money? How can she actually retire? Because of what has happened in the environment with her retirement program.” And she doesn’t have the money really to retire. And it’s like you said, most people if you ask them, you and I have said this. Have you ever had too much tax free income? Have we ever had that? I don’t think a single person has ever said they’ve had too much tax free income.

But has people regretted, oh, I probably shouldn’t have done that tax deferral? Or, oh, I thought I was going to be able to retire, and you’re not able to retire because what you thought was there doesn’t exist at all. Or even if you take it out, the taxes to pay it is more than you can afford even to live on. And I think you see that, and we say that a lot, that and today you see older people working and going back to work, partly maybe because they want to, but more often than not because they need some type of income because the income that was tax deferred, or they thought was their golden nest egg is no longer there. And if you’re thinking, “Hey, taxes are coming up,” you really need to consider the fact that for 2020, your taxes are extremely low.

I mean, once the IRS came into being, and we started jumping tax brackets, the highest tax jump occurred from 15% to 67%. If you don’t think that could happen, where you’re in a 24% tax bracket right now, and it might jump up to 48% or 50%, I think we’re naive to believe that wouldn’t happen in the future because it very realistically could.

Nate: And there’s a precedent for it, yeah. It’s not like it’s unprecedented. It just happens when the government needs money. World War Three comes, seems like it’s knocking at the door every day. Government might need some money, and voila, suddenly we are all paying way more in tax. And maybe I would change my mind. I talked this to you as well, Holly. Maybe if we were in a super high tax bracket situation, maybe it would make sense to have some deferred tax. Maybe it would, I don’t know. I mean, come knock on my door and ask me that question whenever that occurs. But right now, there is absolutely no reason to be deferring tax into the future.

I think some people make the mistake, by the way, of looking at their 401K or their IRA money. And they see this balance here. There’s this balance. Let’s say you have $100,000 saved, $1 million saved in these retirement programs. And you look at this balance and you see this number here. And you think that number is your number. That’s how much money I have. That’s just not true. That’s the problem with it, is that we look at these balances and we think that it’s our money. A portion of it is your money, and a portion of it is Uncle Sam’s money. And you’re going to have to send a percentage of whatever that balance is to the IRS. The problem is, you have no idea how much he’s going to take whenever you do decide to pull it out. The only time that you know how much he’ll take is this year, right now.

You’ll know if I take this out right now, this is how much he’s going to have. But if you want to push that 10 years down the road, you have no idea how much of that number is yours and how much of the number is Uncle Sam’s. That’s intimidating to me. I don’t like that feeling. I don’t like to have a mortgage on my retirement program that I have no idea what it actually is, and I’m only going to find out like a surprise Jack in the box type of thing jumping out at me when I do retire. And then suddenly, oh, here’s how much he wants. Okay. I was not prepared for that amount of money to be his. So all that to say, we think it’s becoming more and more crystal clear in my own life that deferring tax is far more dangerous than just paying taxes today, especially while they’re on sale, and moving as much money as we possibly can into a tax free environment.

I do not think that you can regret doing that. I do think you can regret the other side, having too much money in taxable places in retirement. But I don’t think anyone could ever regret having too much tax free money in retirement. It’s ridiculous.

Holly: And I just want to say too with what we’ve had occur with a pandemic and stimulus checks, and that the money has to come from somewhere to allot for that money. And you have to be wise and you have to start thinking that one of the ways they’re going to be able to access additional money is to increase your taxes. We did it with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. We added 3.8% on top of our tax bracket. And I think that if you think, “Oh, I’m in a low tax bracket,” you have to realize that until 2017, the highest tax rate in the US was 43.4%. And it’s been lowered now to 40.8% because you’ve got to add the 3.8. But the reality, Nate, is that’s a high tax rate, whether you want to get there or not.

But if you realize that, hey, it dropped down to, hey, 20%. Then now we’re back up to 40%. It can very easily increase. And you and I really don’t have a say in whether they’re going to increase it or not. It’s other people making the decision for us and telling us what we have to pay.

Nate: And that’s the annoying part too, is that we have some say. Some people would say the fact that we get to elect as the people, who’s going to go in and so forth. But what we’re saying is, the problem is that you don’t actually know for sure what your elected representatives are going to do when they do get elected. So even if your guy makes it in, and he made certain campaign promises, does not mean he’s actually going to fulfill it. Kind of like when Biden talked about how his plan, his tax plan is not to really increase taxes on anybody making less than $400,000. It’s kind of hard to believe him though. I mean, if you go back to George Bush Senior, his famous saying of, “Read my lips, no new taxes.” And then what does he do? Puts in new taxes.

I mean, they could say whatever they want to say. And I think all of us … And they’ll say whatever they need to say to get elected. That’s what they’ll do. But then once they’re in there, we don’t know for sure what it’s going to be. There’s plenty of people in the Democratic party who want to increase taxes on everybody. That’s really what they want to do because they want to fund all these new programs, government programs for everybody. And so they’re going to need money to do that, and they want to have everybody pay taxes at a higher level, like Bernie Sanders and some of the other people in that type of crowd, essentially the socialists. But if you’re not in that group, and you’re more on the liberty side of things, you have to be concerned about what’s going on, having a guy in office and having a sweep of all the institutes of the US government toward a side that really doesn’t want to increase taxes.

And they may have said, you may not be someone making over $400,000, maybe you are, in which case, you’re already gearing up for increases. But the chances that the average individual in America is going to end up paying more in tax than they are today is becoming a bigger risk as the day goes by.

Holly: In all honestly, ask yourself, “When I get to this age, am I going to be making less or more money? And do I really believe?” Like what Nate did, take a look at what has happened in the history of the taxes in the United States. And make the decision for yourself. We say that a lot. Do your own research. Don’t just take Nate and I’s word for the research and what we can see and discover online, but figure it out for yourself. But ask yourself, “Am I going to be making more or less money than I am today in reality? And do I truly believe that my taxes are going to be lower? Or are they going to be more expensive?” I’m not a betting person, Nate, but I would say that if you look at what has happened and taken place is we are definitely in a time of where it’s going to increase in my viewpoint. And you have to say, “Okay. I’m not willing to possibly pay even more taxes in the future.”

Plus, I think you lose out on the money that you have today, that you can use today, earn money today, and have that tax free growth. I mean, I told Nate, I’ve only considered it once, kind of like you, Nate, that I might do a retirement program. But my accountant told me, “Why would you ever want to do that, Holly?” And he’s like, “From everything that you talk about and you teach, this goes against everything that you believe in.” And he’s like, “You’re right. Your taxes probably are going to be more expensive. And you’re going to have to pay more money then.” And so I didn’t go into the depth that Nate had done, but I’ve read enough to realize when we’ve had a tax rate of 94% as the highest tax rate we’ve had in the US in the last 100 years, then it makes me question. Do I ever want to risk paying 70%, 80%, 90% in taxes? And I don’t.

Nate: This is kind of like hedging your bet, hedging your risk here, because in reality, whenever you can defer tax into the future at whatever rate they’ll pay, that’s a risk that people like you and me, who don’t participate in that, and don’t have to be concerned about. And I think it just makes life more enjoyable. I don’t like worrying about taxes. I don’t like worrying about the future. Just emotionally, I would prefer to not have to deal with those types of things, so I’m happy that my money’s guaranteed to grow every single year in a tax free environment, and that I can use all of it at the drop of a dime, drop of a hat, any time I want, right now, without any penalty or tax whatsoever, no restrictions. That is just a good way for me to live life. I’ve found that fits well with me. And so that’s obviously what I do.

And there’s a lot of people out there who are just like us, Holly, who that’s that they want. And they’ve come to the right place. They really have. But for those of you who are listening and are still being convinced by your accountant or just what you’ve always done, if I don’t contribute to my 401K or IRA this year, then I’m going to have this huge tax bill that I don’t want to pay, my suggestion to you is go ahead and pay the tax bill. And then take whatever’s left, so in other words, this is the issue. Let’s say you’re going to contribute 20 grand to a 401K, and you’re in the 25% tax bracket. So if you contribute 20 grand to the 401K right now, then at the end of the year, your taxes will be five grand less than if you don’t contribute the 20 grand.

Here’s my suggestion to you because taxes are on sale right now. Don’t contribute the 20K. Go ahead and take your $20,000, siphon off five grand of it to pay the tax that you’ll have to pay this year. And take the other $15,000 and put it to work in a place that is going to grow tax free, preferably life insurance policy, designed properly. Could also be some Roth IRAs if that’s really what you want. But most of our listeners are probably in the infinite banking circle already, and that’s what they want to do. And then let that $15,000 grow into a large balance over time that you can use with no tax whatsoever.I just don’t see a way that you could regret doing that, whereas you might regret putting 20K a year in your 401K for the rest of your life, ending life with a large balance in there, and then being concerned and worried about how much taxes you’re going to have to pay, and how much the IRS is going to take off of the balance. I’d rather avoid that. So that’s my suggestion to you. Without being a tax professional, just a layman out here looking at the history of tax brackets, certainly worries me. Anything else, Holly?

Holly: I’m going to make one side note, Nate. And I just want to say the other reason I think I truly like life insurance is because it’s not controlled by our federal government, so I don’t feel like they can just dictate what’s going to happen with it. So in that regard, I feel like it’s a little better option for me because I feel like I have more control over my money. I know I have more control over my money and what happens with it versus just leaving it up to the federal government to regulate or mandate my retirement program.

Nate: Yeah. And there’s always that slight fear that we’ve seen happen in other countries as they go more and more to the socialist side of things, where retirement programs get gobbled up by the single payer retirement social security style system, and money is confiscated to fund a guaranteed pension payout for everyone. And so the money you thought you had is not yours. Instead, here is a government funded pension plan or something like that. Let me decide what I want to do with my money. And I know that risk is … I mean, that’s not on the forefront in America right now, but I think we’d be foolish to think that could not happen here with really where the political spectrum is headed it seems.

So as much private control of capital that you can possibly build up, that better. Taxes are on sale. Take advantage of it now. Don’t defer it into the future where you have no idea what the taxes are going to be. Pay taxes today and start building tax free wealth as fast as possible. I’m sure you’ll be glad you did. This has been Dollars and Nonsense. If you follow the herd, you will get slaughtered.

Holly: For free transcripts and resources, please visit livingwealth.com/e111.

Announcer: Dollars and Nonsense podcast listeners, one more thing before you go. Ease your worry and start your journey towards security today. Visit livingwealth.com/secretbanking. You’ll gain instant free access to the special one hour course Holly and Nate made for you. Again, that’s livingwealth.com/secretbanking.